Mr. Varner?  You need a microphone.

VARNER: Thank you.

Senator Kerry, would you be willing to look directly into the camera and, using simple and unequivocal language, give the American people your solemn pledge not to sign any legislation that will increase the tax burden on families earning less than $200,000 a year during your first term?

KERRY: Absolutely.  Yes.  Right into the camera.  Yes.  I am not going to raise taxes.

I have a tax cut.  And here's my tax cut.

I raise the child-care credit by $1,000 for families to help them be able to take care of their kids.

I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to parents -- and kids, if they're earning for themselves -- to be able to pay for college.

And I lower the cost of health care in the way that I described to you.  Every part of my program I've shown how I'm going to pay for it.

And I've gotten good people, like former Secretary of the Treasury Bob Rubin, for instance, who showed how to balance budgets and give you a good economy, to help me crunch these numbers and make them work.

I've even scaled back some of my favorite programs already, like the child-care program I wanted to fund and the national service program, because the president's deficit keeps growing and I've said as a pledge, "I'm going to cut the deficit in half in four years."

Now, I'm going to restore what we did in the 1990s, ladies and gentlemen: pay as you go.  We're going to do it like you do it.  The president broke the pay-as-you-go rule.

Somebody here asked the question about, "Why haven't you vetoed something?"  It's a good question.  If you care about it, why don't you veto it?

I think John McCain called the energy bill the "No Lobbyist Left Behind" bill.

I mean, you've got to stand up and fight somewhere, folks.

I'm pledging I will not raise taxes; I'm giving a tax cut to the people earning less than $200,000 a year.

Now, for the people earning more than $200,000 a year, you're going to see a rollback to the level we were at with Bill Clinton, when people made a lot of money.

And looking around here, at this group here, I suspect there are only three people here who are going to be affected: the president, me, and, Charlie, I'm sorry, you too.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBSON: Mr. President, 90 seconds.

BUSH: He's just not credible when he talks about being fiscally conservative.  He's just not credible.  If you look at his record in the Senate, he voted to break the caps -- the spending caps -- over 200 times.

And here he says he's going to be a fiscal conservative, all of a sudden.  It's just not credible.  You cannot believe it.

And of course he's going to raise your taxes.  You see, he's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending.  And you say: Well, how are you going to pay for it?  He says, well, he's going to raise the taxes on the rich -- that's what he said -- the top two brackets.  That raises, he says $800 billion; we say $600 billion.

We've got battling green eye shades.

Somewhere in between those numbers -- and so there's a difference, what he's promised and what he can raise.

Now, either he's going to break all these wonderful promises he's told you about or he's going to raise taxes.  And I suspect, given his record, he's going to raise taxes.

Is my time up yet?

GIBSON: No, you can keep going.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: Good. You looked at me like my clock was up.

I think that the way to grow this economy is to keep taxes low, is have an energy plan, is to have litigation reform. A s I told you, we've just got a report that said over the past 13 months, we've created 1.9 million new jobs.

And so the fundamental question of this campaign is: Who's going to keep the economy growing so people can work?  That's the fundamental question.

GIBSON: I'm going to come back one more time to how these numbers add up and how you can cut that deficit in half in four years, given what you've both said.

KERRY: Well, first of all, the president's figures of $2.2 trillion just aren't accurate.  Those are the fuzzy math figures put together by some group that works for the campaign.  That's not the number.

Number two, John McCain and I have a proposal, jointly, for a commission that closes corporate giveaway loopholes.  We've got $40 billion going to Bermuda.  We've got all kinds of giveaways.  We ought to be shutting those down.

And third, credible: Ladies and gentlemen, in 1985, I was one of the first Democrats to move to balance the budget.  I voted for the balanced budget in '93 and '97.  We did it.  We did it.  And I was there.

GIBSON: Thirty seconds. I'm sorry, thirty seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH: Yes, I mean, he's got a record.  It's been there for 20 years.  You can run, but you can't hide.  He voted 98 times to raise taxes.  I mean, these aren't make-up figures.

And so people are going to have to look at the record.  Look at the record of the man running for the president.

They don't name him the most liberal in the United States Senate because he hasn't shown up to many meetings.  They named him because of his votes.  And it's reality.

It's just not credible to say he's going to keep taxes down and balance budgets.

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