And for the question, we're going to turn to Jane Barrow.

BARROW: Senator Kerry, how can the U.S. be competitive in manufacturing given -- in manufacturing, excuse me -- given the wage necessary and comfortably accepted for American workers to maintain the standard of living that they expect?

KERRY: Jane, there are a lot of ways to be competitive.  And unfortunately again I regret this administration has not seized them and embraced them.  Let me give you an example.

There is a tax loophole right now.  If you're a company in St. Louis working, trying to make jobs here, there is actually an incentive for you to go away.  You get more money, you keep more of your taxes by going abroad.

I'm going to shut that loophole, and I'm going to give the tax benefit to the companies that stay here in America to help make them more competitive.

Secondly, we're going to create a manufacturing jobs credit and a new jobs credit for people to be able to help hire and be more competitive here in America.

Third, what's really hurting American business more than anything else is the cost of health care.

Now, you didn't hear any plan from the president, because he doesn't have a plan to lower the cost of health care.

Five million Americans have lost their health care; 620,000 Missourians have no health care at all; 96,000 Missourians have lost their health care under President Bush.

I have a plan to cover those folks.  And it's a plan that lowers cost for everybody, covers all children.  And the way I pay for it -- I'm not fiscally irresponsible -- is I roll back the tax cut this president so fiercely wants to defend, the one for him and me and Charlie.

I think you ought to get the break.  I want to lower your cost to health care.  I want to fully fund education, No Child Left Behind, special-needs education.  And that's how we're going to be more competitive, by making sure our kids are graduating from school and college.

China and India are graduating more graduates in technology and science than we are.

We've got to create the products of the future.  That's why I have a plan for energy independence within 10 years.

And we're going to put our laboratories and our colleges and our universities to work.  And we're going to get the great entrepreneurial spirit of this country, and we're going to free ourselves from this dependency on Mideast oil.

That's how you create jobs and become competitive.

GIBSON: Mr. President, minute and a half.

BUSH: Let me start with how to control the cost of health care: medical liability reform, for starters, which he's opposed.

Secondly, allow small businesses to pool together so they can share risk and buy insurance at the same discounts big businesses get to do.

Thirdly, spread what's called health savings accounts.  It's good for small businesses, good for owners.  You own your own account.  You can save tax-free.  You get a catastrophic plan to help you on it.

This is different from saying, "OK, let me incent you to go on the government."

He's talking about his plan to keep jobs here.  You know he calls it an outsourcing to keep -- stop outsourcing.  Robert Rubin looked at his plan and said it won't work.  The best way to keep jobs here in America is, one, have an energy plan.  I proposed one to the Congress two years ago, encourages conservation, encourages technology to explore for environmentally friendly ways for coal -- to use coal and gas.  It encourages the use of renewables like ethanol and biodiesel.

It's stuck in the Senate.  He and his running-mate didn't show up to vote when they could have got it going in the Senate.

Less regulations if we want jobs here; legal reform if we want jobs here; and we've got to keep taxes low.

Now, he says he's only going to tax the rich.  Do you realize, 900,000 small businesses will be taxed under his plan because most small businesses are Subchapter S corps or limited partnerships, and they pay tax at the individual income tax level.

And so when you're running up the taxes like that, you're taxing job creators, and that's not how you keep jobs here.

GIBSON: Senator, I want to extend for a minute, you talk about tax cuts to stop outsourcing.  But when you have IBM documents that I saw recently where you can hire a programmer for $12 in China, $56 an hour here, tax credits won't cut it.

KERRY: You can't stop all outsourcing, Charlie.  I've never promised that.  I'm not going to, because that would be pandering.  You can't.

But what you can do is create a fair playing field, and that's what I'm talking about.

But let me just address what the president just said.

Ladies and gentlemen, that's just not true what he said.  The Wall Street Journal said 96 percent of small businesses are not affected at all by my plan.

And you know why he gets that count?  The president got $84 from a timber company that owns, and he's counted as a small business.  Dick Cheney's counted as a small business.  That's how they do things.  That's just not right.

BUSH: I own a timber company?

(LAUGHTER)

That's news to me.

(LAUGHTER)

Need some wood?

(LAUGHTER)

Most small businesses are Subchapter S corps.  They just are.  I met Grant Milliron, Mansfield, Ohio.  He's creating jobs.  Most small businesses -- 70 percent of the new jobs in America are created by small businesses.

Taxes are going up when you run up the top two brackets.  It's a fact.

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